Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1485



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL
Re: Task System, Game Design, etc.
Re: Task System Blues
Re: Task System, Game Design, etc.
Re: Task systems. BEST suggestion so far (IMHO)
Re: TL of ramshackle empire
Task system vote
Re: The MT task system was *FAR* from perfect...
Re: The MT task system was *FAR* from perfect...
Re: Why KBv2.0 is fundamentally flawed
Re: The Real Vote
Re: Why the MT system  _is_ a good choice
Re: Why the MT system  _is_ a good choice
Re: Why KBv2.0 is fundamentally flawed
Re:  Space Combat Probabilities
Tasks and role playing
Re: Re: Anomalies stuff
Re: Why the MT system _is_ a good choice, pt II (retort to KB)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:02:25 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL

My "offline friend" J.P. has followed the responses to my post about RoM
tech level.  I also think that he is right on about what we are trying
to point out to the readers of this list.


To those of you who still think that J-drive range is the sole measure
of tech level, answer the following questions.

1) What tech does it take to Terraform a size 8 world?

2) What tech does it take to genetically alter homo-sapiens into a
   self-reproducing, stable, water-breathing variant (i.e. make a minor
   human)?

3) What tech does it take to genetically alter a non-sapient species to
   sapience (i.e. dolphins)?


All of the above were accomplished by the Terran Confederation BEFORE the
Rule of Man.


Again, what Tech Level was the Rule of Man?


With fondest regards,

J.P./Leroy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:59:56 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Task System, Game Design, etc.

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> >
- -> > >Yes, I did agree with you that if we put skills on a 1-15 scale, the  rest
- -> > >of the discussion would be moot.
- -> > 
- -> > That sounds like a reasonable compromise...to me.  Of course, that would
- -> > push the number or dice up wouldn't it? ;->
- -> 
- -> Yes.  I told Marc that too.  If you have skills and stats on a 1-15
- -> scale, you're looking at target numbers like KBv2.0 has.  
- -> 
- -> You'll have to use 2-7 dice to get the percentages where they need
- -> to be.

Please, no!! ;-(
Skill levels are getting to high as it is already, no more!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:56:25 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Task System Blues

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> 
- -> > Hey i am not proposing to use the MT system unchanged...
- -> > I just want to see a similar task system, maybe one where the 
- -> > attributes are divided by three. I just want to roll two dice however 
- -> > and i wantr to have task difficulty determined by a target number, 
- -> > not by rolling more and more dice!
- -> 
- -> You design it, and I'll tear it apart to see if it is a good
- -> system.
- -> 
- -> Or, we can go with something that is not broken...like KBv2.0.
I said "not perfect"! No task system is perfect. 
Suggestion improvements does not imply that the system is broken. 
No offence, but i just don't like KBvXX as much as i do the MT 
System! Sorry, but that's the way things are!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:01:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Task System, Game Design, etc.

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> I think we should work within the confines of what Traveller has
- -> given us--that is stats that range from 1-15 and skills that range
- -> from 1-6 or so.
Agreed 100%!
- -> 
- -> I spent months tackling the problems presented in T4.  I did my
- -> homework, and I did a good job on the system.
(Lots of Backslapping going on...What's that smell?????)

- -> It is still the best choice we have.

Or so you say!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:07:52 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Task systems. BEST suggestion so far (IMHO)

Zhodani agents report that J. wrote:
- -> I thought this was a great idea. Then a thought occurred to me
- -> (don't worry it doesn't happen very often :)
- -> 
- -> Why restrict it to two task systems?
- -> 
- -> So the constants are Skill names, stat names and difficulty levels,
- -> my suggestion is whenever a task is printed in an adventure or
- -> supplement or in JTAS print it only using these things, for
- -> example:
- -> 
- ->         To put on a Vacc suit
- ->         Average, DEX, Vacc suit
- ->         increase difficulty level if in a confined space
- ->         decrease difficulty level if another character is assisting
- -> 
- -> It's easy to understand and it's not specific to any task system.
- -> It's usable by everyone regardless of rules system without
- -> modification (I haven't had chance to check the details).

- -> Comments?
Comments????
I love that idea, i think that this idea is one of the best things to 
come out of the discussions yet. I just love it. 
This is it!!!
Just print a generic desription of the task and everyone can use 
their pet system! Did i say i love this idea. Printing it out right 
now.
Good job Jonathan!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 02:20:35 +1000
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: TL of ramshackle empire

At 03:00 26/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>   This is the second reference I've seen to this.  So I pulled out my
>copy and sure enough, there it is on page 34.  I officially stand
>corrected (I had previously indicated that the TL of the RoM had been
>strongly hinted at, but not actually stated).
>
>Below is a chart of the tech levels achieved by the major interstellar
>powers.
>
>THE FIRST IMPERIUM
>
>Imperial  TL  Comments
>-9235      9  Vilani discover Jump1
>-8900     10  Vilani sphere reaches about 10 parsecs in size
>-5430     11  Vilani discover Jump2
>
>THE SECOND IMPERIUM
>(Originally the Terran Confederation)


The biggest problem here is of cause in some moduals (I think it was JTAS
where they had an issue on Terra), where they go into bio-engineering
dolphins and chimps (al la David Brin Uplift). 

The assumption is that this happened before or during the RoM. (I may be
wrong, flames to thier usual adress).

I shudder to think where that level of bio-engineering fits into a TL.

>
>Imperial  TL  Comments
>-2431      9  Terrans discover Jump1
>-2408     10  First Terran/Vilani Interstellar War ends
>-2398     11  Terrans discover Jump2
>-2210     12  Terrans discover Jump3
>

Jump technolagy seems to be the defining trend with tech levels, as they
are the only thing mention in Alien Modual : Solomani. Again I would point
out that it is concevable that Terra could have been retarded compared to
the vilani when it came to discovering Jump tech, or they may have been
ultra advanced. I have no idea :-)

Again lets look at the whole Interstellar War period. It would be quite
apparent that both the Vilani and the Terran Confederacy where fighting
different wars, the Vilani fighting British colonial style, while the
Terrans used total war mentality. In fact it took the 8th Interstellar war
for it to progress to include the whole Vilani empire.

The truth is , we dont know what tech was available due to the lack of
canon material regarding the Terran Confederation. We do know they did not
use fighters (T4), but appart from that we dont know how the Terrans did
things. We have a better idea of the Vilani as the RoM and the Third
Imperium are Vilani empires with a veneer of Solomani (which is more than
likely a bastardisation of Terrans anyway (Alien Modual : Solomani, where
it mentions the Solomanisation of the Vilani)

I have always been interested with the Interstellar War, and maybe we can
use PE as a base guide on the whole period.

I enjoyed your post Harold, and maybe somehow the TML can actualy codify
the Interstellar war period, so we can stop this darn RoM artifacts flamewar.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:59:01 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@dk-online.dk>
Subject: Task system vote

25/6-97 Volker A. Greimann wrote:

<snip>

> 72 votes tallied!
> MT taking an impressive lead by now! Anybody cited wrong or left out 
> mail me and i'll change the list!

I wasn't going to do this, but now I do it anyway: I'll vote for the MT
system.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:25:30 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The MT task system was *FAR* from perfect...

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> Any task system
- -> > proposed MUST be backwards compatible to some extent, or you risk
- -> > angering potentially thousands of non-TML Traveller players.
- -> 
- -> This is a big plus for KBv2.0.  It fits in nicely, with minimal
- -> changes, and you can use the rest of T4 the way it is.
- -> 
- -> Not so with MT.
What i don't understand is this: 
Do the new supplements fail to state the task difficulties and 
relevant skills and stats? If not, there is no reason not to change 
to MT, as MT doesn't require ANYTHING else (apart from fewer
dice!)


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:22:56 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The MT task system was *FAR* from perfect...

Zhodani agents report that James Lindsay wrote:

- -> > Problem #4
- -> > ==========
- -> > If you are highly skilled enough at certain tasks, say Gun Combat, you can
- -> > achieve impossible tasks that simply should not be possible. For instance,
- -> > you have good marksmanship skill, say Combat Rifleman-5. If you roll high
- -> > enough on your task roll, using a gauss rifle or whatever, you can
- -> > penetrate battledress and wound or even kill its wearer with one shot or
- -> > burst.
- -> > 
- -> > This should simply not be possible. TNE accounted for this and T4 needs to
- -> > find a way or it defies reality too much.
Why? There should always be "That one lucky shot". Of course a BD can 
be penetrated, there is no such thing as a perfect defence. Every 
Armor has it's weak spot and MT represents that. Such is life and 
such is MT.  

- ->  Products have already been released that feature a task system
- -> using multiple dice, and reverting to MT, no matter how many list
- -> members request it, will simply not happen.  Otherwise, IG will
I agree. "J.", however posted a perfect solution to the dilemma: Use 
generic task desciptions in future products and offer alternatives in 
JTAS or other publications. The more people argue for another task 
system, the more willing will IG be to consider at least that! I 
don't need to see the MT-System in the T4.1 rulebook, (although i'd 
be all for that!)  a one-line reference to other publications would 
be enough by all means.

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:39:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Why KBv2.0 is fundamentally flawed

Zhodani agents report that Andy Brick wrote:

- -> Hi All,
- -> 
- -> Kenneth, you asked me why I and others had found KBv2.0
- -> unsatisfactory. Here goes -
So, Ken, 
Andy took your challenge. I hope you now find a way to defeat these 
positions, especially about the added detail of MT and the Variable 
Dice Problem . If you don't "put your money were your mouth is" (as 
you so rightly proclaimed earlier), your challence has been met and 
proof of the superiority of MT over KBvXX has been shown!
 

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:33:07 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The Real Vote

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> Of the first 73 votes for task change, there were only 8 that voted
- -> for MT.  Those people were--
(snippage of names)
Problem is that this faction expanded to over 35 by now!

- -> Of those same 73 votes, there were a whopping 28 votes for KBv2.0. 
- -> Those people were--
(names snipped again)
Problem here is that many people stopped supporting KBvXX by now and 
changed to other systems, such as MT. MT has by now more than double 
support over KBvXX. If you get more poeple to vote, they'll be added, 
i omit no one!

- -> There remaining votes were either unclear, undecided, or voting for
- -> some other system (withou a majority vote). Those 36 votes were
Switches to other factions (sounds like the Rebellion....hmm-MT)

- -> But, clearly, KBv2.0 has a significant number of supporters--I'd
- -> wager much more than the MT system does.
Well, according to my list, this isn't true anymore! Sorry!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:44:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Why the MT system  _is_ a good choice

Zhodani agents report that Anders Backman wrote:

- -> Yes time is a factor but that should be figured INTO the task roll.
- -> You get into all kinds of timetravel like strangenesses when a guy
- -> succeeds at a task despite not having the time to complete it. What
- -> has really happened? Did he spend as much time as he had and
- -> stopped there but miracolously knows that IF he had had the time
- -> he'd succeed. In order to use the time roll it had to be rolled
- -> before the task began and then the player could try a hasty task
- -> NOT rerolling the time but cutting the time in half or something.
The way i alway did it was to as the player first weather he wanted 
any modifications, then performed the time roll, if time was an 
issue, and afterwards let him roll the task roll! 
Problem solved! 

- -> >-> 4. The Exceptional success thing. Most of the time a Exceptional success
- -> >-> was more common than a regular one! What does Exceptional really mean?
- -> >That might be changed as well! Make it 3+ for example! Be Free!
- -> >Exeptional to me always meant: better than average!
- -> 
- -> I suggest looking it up. Exceptional is the exception to the norm,
Better than the norm, exactly! What is "the norm"???
Average is what i call it!!!

- -> out of the ordinary 

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:48:25 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Why the MT system  _is_ a good choice

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> > -> 1 Automatic success on 12 and automatic failure on 2. This rule and all
- -> > -> otherv rules with fixed automishap/success are generally there because the
- -> > -> task system designer couldn't figure out a way to generate differentiated
- -> > -> results with arbtrarily low propabilities. OK I'll try to play a violin
- -> > -> piece from Paganini: The -DMs and task difficulty would be mind boggling
- -> > -> but I'd still have 1/36 chance of success.
- -> 
- -> > i didn't like that either, but that could be changed. I am not just 
- -> > advocationg ther pure MT-System, but any variation of it!
- -> 
- -> So, we make the change from T4 to MT, and THEN we have to tweak MT.
We make the change on the List, we then change it and then submit the 
perfected version to JTAS or Marc! 
- -> > The time roll, was in my opinion, an exellent idea! You know how long 
- -> > something wil take on average, but might take longer or less. Just 
- -> > like real life! 
- -> I agree with you here.  I think the MT time roll should be 
- -> implemented in T4.  I already use it.
;-) Mutual agreement is the sweetest victory!
- -> 
- -> 
- -> > No, the task system was a stroke of genius as well, not perfect, but 
- -> > better than todays!
- -> Back that up.  In what way?
O.k, no problemo:
High complexity but easy to understand, standard number of dice, 
right weight on skills, realistic probabilities, want more?

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:48:40 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Why KBv2.0 is fundamentally flawed

Not that Kenneth *needs* anyone to come to his defense, but I found a few
comments here that inappropriately placed the blame on KBv2.0 for problems
with the system. Let's remember that KBv2.0 is an attempt to emulate the
current task system as closely as possible, without the flaws.

Andy Brick wrote:

>  (a) That KBv2.0 ( and T4 for that matter ) did not preserve the look an=
>d feel of Traveller.
>      Traveller uses 2D task rolls. Anything else ain't Traveller. It's l=
>ike playing RuneQuest and
>      making task rolls on 2D - RuneQuest is a percentile game.

Again, KBv2.0 emulates the *T4* task system as closely as possible but
addresses the skill/stat and half die problems.

In case you hadn't noticed, MM's original T4 task system was also *not* a
2D system, so I don't see how you can criticize KBv2.0 for this. It was
modeled after the current game, not CT or MT as you seem to be doing.

Yes, there has been a certain level of support of an MT-like system on
*this* list (which we must remember is not the come-all, end-all of
Traveller players), but MM has to consider the effects of throwing an
entirely different task system at the market. People bought T4 and have
read and are conceivably using the T4 task system, broken or not. KBv2.0
attempts to stick with the new task system paradigm but with repairs.
You're proposing a complete retrofit of the task system based on MT rules.
A risky business proposition when you consider the number of newbies you
risk pissing off with such a switch.

I'm afraid you're wrong that "anything else [besides 2D systems] ain't
Traveller." TNE was most certainly Traveller (it was published by GDW) and
it used D20. T4, in its original dysfunctional state, used multiple dice
and half dice and it most certainly *is* Traveller.

You seem to have certain prejudices here based on your commitment to the
MT-like task system that are clouding your ability to offer valid and
unbiased criticism.

>  (b) They wanted to get on and play the game, not spend any time learnin=
>g a new task system
>      when they already knew one thoroughly which WORKED.

MT did not thoroughly work. It was satisfactory and worked well, but it was
far from perfect. T4 attempted to establish a new paradigm. If you throw a
*completely* different task system into the game now, you risk alienating
newbies and people who have just reentered the Traveller fold after sitting
out TNE or whatever.

They bought T4. They read the task system. If they buy T4.1 and see what
may be to them an *entirely* new task system (which an MT-based system
would be to newbies), there is a high possibility they won't be pleased.

KBv2.0 attempts to stick with the intent of MM's T4 task system but it
corrects the flaws.

>  (e) Those players who had low stat characters felt considerably disadva=
>ntaged amongst their fellows.
>      Suddenly Int 5 was a major handicap for a character. Characters tha=
>t had been played for years
>      were altered overnight ; no one wanted their character "crippled" i=
>n this way.

Again, this is part of the task paradigm established by MM, not KBv2.0.
You're misplacing blame here. It was MM's T4 who decided to place dispersed
weight between stats and skills, not KBv2.0.

Your players were "crippled" by MM's T4, not KBv2.0. And besides,
characters with an INT 5 *should* be somewhat crippled. That's part of the
game. If you're not terribly bright, you're not going to be as good at a
task that requires intelligence as someone who has a much higher
intelligence. However, if you are considerably more skilled than someone
with a higher INT, you will be as good or better than him.

It sounds more and more like you're just trying to get the MT task system
in its original state as the official system. Your criticism would all be
better levied against MM's T4 rather than KBv2.0.

>  C'mon Kenneth, are you seriously expecting me to believe that for a 5D =
>task roll, a Medic-2 guy is
>  56 times as good as Medic-1, yet for a 4D task roll he's only 14 times =
>as good ?? =
>
>  NO WAY.

At higher difficulty levels, *everyone* has a reduced chance of success.
It's meant to reflect that a certain amount of luck is involved for anyone
at the higher difficulty levels.

>* MegaTraveller has a built in method for determining how long a task tak=
>es. KBv2.0 has no such
>  method.

and

>* MT has the Mishap system, which provides referees with a guideline as t=
>o how badly someone has
>  screwed up and the time taken to effect repairs. KBv2.0 has no such sys=
>tem. Also, MT allows for
>  Hazardous and Fateful tasks, which affect the expected level of mishap =
>still further.

Again, blame T4, not KBv2.0.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml




- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:11:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Space Combat Probabilities

>Well, I've already run into a slight difficulty--the range bands are WAY
>too granular. 

*Big* surprise. I'm fairly sure I complained about this already earlier.
You can use fractional range bands - 5000/16000/50000/160000 for some
improvement (there's some provision for this in my sensor rules.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:30:21 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Tasks and role playing

From a mechanical point of view KBv2 seems fine. But for my style of running
games neither it or its T4 father will work for me. I basically like the
ultimate determination about whether a task succeeds or not belonging to the
GM and not the players.  With T4 and KBv2 the GM announces the difficulty
level then the player take over rolling their dice and ultimately announcing
whether or not they have succeeded.  I prefer a system where the players make
their rolls and then the GM tells them the outcome.  This not only allows the
GM to build up suspense over the outcome of the task but also allow the GM to
fix the results if they want to.  I'll admit that my preference does result
from many years of successfully running Champions this way.  If Marc's final
choice for a task system doesn't allow for this type of GMing then I will
probable use an variant of MT or a simplified version of CORPS.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:46:07 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Anomalies stuff

At 04:05 AM 6/26/97 GMT, you wrote:

>This is rather like the old Virus argument in TNE, in which a plot device
>intended to be rare (and stated as such in the rulebook) figured in a great
>many of the adventures (about a third).  My opinion is that Virus is rare in
>the TNE setting, but a great many authors wanted to write a Virus adventure,
>so a lot of Virus adventures were published.

IMHO, TL13-14 relics should be exceedingly rare.  The analogy I came up
with was Pompeii... much of what we know of Roman daily life comes from
*one* site that had the misfortune to be buried by vocanic ash.
Considering the size of the Roman Empire, and how little of it is usuable
by archeolgists for whatever reason, you can see that a cache of working
high-tech goodies will be a once in a lifetime find.

>Oh yes, I'm filling out failure reports.  If anyone can think of a tactful
>way to say "Your offspring failed because they are rude obnoxious twits who
>do no work, talk continuously, and handed in a nearly blank final exam."
>_please_ email me -- I'm getting desperate :-/

Your children enjoy an active social life, and are always open with their
opinions and comments in class.  They do need to focus more on the assigned
work, however.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|    "Traveller assumes a remote centralized     |
|   government (referred to in this volume as    |
|    the Imperium)...                            |
|       -Introduction, Book 4: Mercenary (1978)  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 19:03:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Why the MT system _is_ a good choice, pt II (retort to KB)

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> Read the example.  I am comparing a Med-3, Edu-9 character to a
- -> Med-1, Edu-9 character.
- -> 
- -> All factors are the same except the skill level.  The Med-1 doctor
- -> has a better chance of rolling regular success than a Med-3 doctor.
- -> 
- -> And that's just not right in anybody's book.
It is in mine! It just reflects his ability to perform the operation 
perfectly, without a flaw!
Therefore he should be able, due to his skill, to perform more 
perfect than regular results than the lesser skilled Med-Scholl 
Attendee! 

- -> > Or is it? I agree, it needs some tweaking, but it's better than 
- -> > rolling endless numbers of dice.
- -> 
- -> Why is it better than rolling 2-7 dice?
Well, it's just a preference thing, just as some people loathe the 
1/2 Die ;-) 
- -> In MT, you are constatly dividing stat by 5.  If you are wounded
- -> (using the T4 wound system, not the MT after the fact system), you
- -> have to recalculate stats.
I was never good in Maths. However dividing a number up to 15 by 5 
wasn't what i (or the greatest idiot in the world, for that matter) 
would call challenging!
- -> It is clear that you did not do your homework.  There are still
- -> problems with the MT task system.
Nothing that would diminish my fun playing with it, which is the most 
important part in a RPG!
- -> 
- -> All I see criticising KBv2.0 is the personal preference of too many
- -> dice.
A short reminder:
One of the very first reasons you gave when you created KBv1.0 was:
"Get's rid of the half die!" 
So who is critizizing for preferences? 
KBv2.0 is broken as well, if you read ealier posts, just look at the 
differences between skill levels when difficulty increases. Answer 
that first before you call MT broken!
- -> 
- -> There are no areas where the mechanics of KBv2.0 fail--like in MT.
Wrong, see above!
- -> Show me a way that KBv2.0 fails in the game mechanics.
See above!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1485
***********************************
